February 17, 2005
Response
Maccabee posed the folowing question but typically,then didn't put up a valid E-mail address so that I could respond to him.
I notice you posted on Words on a Page that we are in Iraq because they attacked us.Uh....when did Iraq ever attack us?
Just curious about what you are talking about
Posted by Maccabee at February 17, 2005 04:40 PM
I put my response e-mail into the extended entry here.
I'm sorry, I mis-spoke and didn't really make myself very clear. My meaning was that we were in the M.E. in general because of continual attacks on US property and citizens since the Beruit barracks bombings in the Reagan administration, culminating in the 9/11 event.
We have been at war for at least that time, without the majority of people even being aware of it.
The lack of decisive response to terrorist acts has led to an ever bolder group of terrorist organizations, and bolder support from the states that sponser them.
Saddam was one of the most vehement supporters. No, I don't believe that he helped plan 9/11, but I do believe that his monetary support enabled Al Quiada to progress in it's plans, and the people involved in the attack DID train in the methods of hijacking an airliner at Salmon Pak, which certainly could not have been done without Saddams full backing and knowledge. So in that sense, Iraq did attack us. The term is "plausible deniability". You use proxies to fight for you, while keeping your own hands seemingly clean. Just as Egypt,Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iran, et al are using the Palestinians as proxies in their war to eradicate Israel.
My contention has always been that Iraq was just the first step in a long process in the fight against Islamofacism. President Bush's goal is, and has always been, an attempt to begin the democratization the whole region. The effort will take far longer than his term in office, but I believe it to be a worthy one, and the best thing for not only OUR security, but for the ultimate betterment of the people in the region. And NO, I DON'T believe that we will have to attack every other nation in the area to achieve this goal.
Iran and Afghanistan are only to be examples of what the people of the region could achieve on their own, if they have the will and desire for freedom, and are willing to take it from their rulers.
Recent events have shown that President Bush was correct in his assessment that the people COULD take freedom in their own hands...The recent elections being a case in point, and the ordinary Iraqi citizens beginning to fight back against the "insurgents" being another. A third is the recent statement that there WOULD be a woman named to be a Provincial Governor in Afghanistan for another. And the recent loosening of strictures to allow the people in Saudi Arabia to elect their own choice of local officials is another. Gadaffi in Libyia (sic) publically renouncing terrorism as a valid means of business for another (yes I don't for one moment believe that he will actually STOP, but he will have to much more circumspect from now on...)
There is an undercurrent rising among all the populaces of the region of "if Iraq and Afghanistan can have free elections, why can't we?" We need to nurture and support that sentiment, and the ONLY way to do that is from a position of strength and showing that we have the will to "stay the course". We need to build Iraq up to self-sufficiency as soon as possible and then get the hell out and let the Iraqis do the rest in their own way to fit their own needs. It will never be a carbon copy of the US, nor should we desire that it be so.
In the Arab culture as it is, strength is the only medium of exchange, show one moment of weakness, and any negotiation will totally fall apart. We've shown the strength and the will, now we can start the negotiations.
The Ancient Romans had a proverb: "If you desire Peace, prepare for War", when they forgot that meaning of that adage, their empire fell. No, we are not an empire, but the same applies to nations.
I think the main difference between conservatives and so-called progresives is that we deal in the world as it is in all it's sometime uglyness and try to change it and progressives deal with a world as they wish it to be, and assume that everyone will see things the same way, if they only talk enough and show enough "understanding".
The thing that progressives forget is that there ARE truly evil people in the world, and all the talking and understanding in the world will never change them. The only way to deal with them is total eradication. These are the type of people that attain leadership in Muslim/Tribal societies, by the force of their own ruthlessness and strength.
It seems that the type of people that call themselves progressive can not understand the difference between that type of society and seem to assume that all societies are like ours, albeit with minor cultural differences, when they are decidedly NOT. They would term that view as "cultural Imperialism", but it's really just an acknowledgement of what really exists. The two cultures are incompatible, and it was inevitable that there would come a time when they would vie for supremacy. If we wish to survive, we had better wake up and realize just what is really going on. If we don't, I hope you have access to a good rug maker, because you will need one to say your five daily prayers to Allah.
Call me an extremist if you will, but put this in a time capsule and reread it in 30 years and see if my assertions don't prove out.
Our opponents in this conflict have not hidden their intent, but you have to read and believe that they are serious, then the truth of what I'm asserting will bear itself out. And it's not even the obviously radical element that is the biggest worry...it's groups like C.A.I.R. that are seen as "moderate" that are the greatest danger. Google their mission statement and you will see that they are intent with replacing our Constitution with Shar'ia law, and make the US a Muslim country. I don't know about you, but I for one don't consider that a moderate stance.
Look to my birthplace, the Netherlands and see just how "tolerance,patience,and understanding have been used to further Muslim extremism, and similar actions are taking place all over Europe.
Sorry to be so long winded, but I hope that now you can see where I'm coming from.
*getting off the soapbox*
Thanks for coming over and reading my site, don't be a stranger! We may not agree, but at least the discussions will be lively!
Bert/delftsman3
Most of what you say here is the same retoric the Bush administration has been spoon feeding us since 2003.
Iraq, Iran, Pakistian, nor Afghanistan NEVER attacked the US. In fact no country has made an attack on US soil since Pearl Harbor. We were attacked by a terrorist organization which had many bases of operations in all the above mentioned countries including Saudia Arabia. Who incidently remains on the list of friendly countries, despite the fact that they too had ties to Bin Laden. One can only speculate that the reason for that is their equally strong ties to our own President and his family.
Iraq is now a quagmire, and the new #1 training ground for terrorist. There were never any PROVEN ties between Iraq and Al Qaeda.
What right has the US to demand that the rest of the world embrace democracy and Christianity? Why shouldn't the Muslim religion flourish? Or should only Christians be allowed to spread their religious beliefs? Has it ever occurred to you people that MAYBE the people of the Middle East don't WANT democracy? Why is it you think we have the right to go into their part of the world and spread OUR message, but they do not have the same right to do so here? Since we can no longer rely on the media to report the unvarnished, unbiased truth, we don't really know what these people want. For every example you can give of Iraqi's who say they want what the US has brought to their country I can give you equal reports of Iraqi's who say they want the US to go away and wish they'd never come to their country. I'm sure the truth lies somewhere in between.
When all is said and done, if the US kept our nose out of other country's business (unless they ASKED for help) and put more focus on the problems here within our own borders, we MIGHT be a better, safer, and more respected country throughout the world.
One thing is for certain, neither Iran nor N.Korea has made any indications that they have thoughts, ideas, or plans to attack the US. They have both stated their persuit of nuclear weapons is for their own use and protection. Considering Israel's treatment of Palestine, I can understand why any country in the Middle East might feel they need protection from them. As for N.Korea, the US would bode well how they deal with them, least we awaken the large bear that sleeps in their backyard. I do not believe that China will tolerate an attack on N.Korea. Which may well be why Bush & Co. are putting their focus on Iran. Either way, to attempt to deal with either country in the same manner they did Iraq, will be a fatal mistake. A mistake that will cost many many more American lives than the 1400+ that have been lost in Iraq and Afghanistan. A mistake that more than likely will bring our warmongering to our own shores. Even the Patriot Act and Homeland Security will not be able to protect us. You can mark my words on that one.
Incidently, Maccabee has long been a reader and poster on my blog. He always leaves his blog address and he knows I know his email address. I am sure he assumed you would make your response in my comments since that is where the conversation started. I would have assumed that much as well.
Posted by: wanda at February 17, 2005 08:33 PM1. check the email that maccabee left here and try to use it, it will come right back to you.
I would have much preferered to send it to him in an e--mail due to the length, and I really didn't want to make it seem I was being catty by posting it.
2. I felt that my response would have taken up too much of your bandwidth, and at the least would have been broken up into at least three parts due to your limit on the space of an individual comment.
"What right has the US to demand that the rest of the world embrace democracy and Christianity?"
Just WHERE did I advocate that Muslims should convert to Christianity? One of the points of my little screed was that Islam doesn't compremise with other religions as Christianity and most other religions do. Christians haven't tried to force adherance to their religion since the last Crusade. Even the so called "moderate forms", in the end, preach non tolerance of other religions.
"Iraq is now a quagmire, and the new #1 training ground for terrorists."
It's such a quagmire that ordinary Iraqi citizens are starting to take action agains't the "insurgents" themselves, without resorting to even their own security forces, much less the US forces.
"Has it ever occurred to you people that MAYBE the people of the Middle East don't WANT democracy?"
Yes all people's will have a different form of democracy than ours,suited to their own culture, but I truly don't believe that any SANE person would wish to live under the yoke of a dictator willingly. The Left is fond of calling conservatives racists, but examine your statement and tell me that it isn't fundementally racist IE, "they just don't know any better and don't want anything better".
"We were attacked by a terrorist organization which had many bases of operations in all the above mentioned countries including Saudia Arabia."
Yes, and any country that knowingly and willingly harbored terrrorists are ipso facto terrorists themselves, and I WOULD include SA in that group. The point is that in taking on Iraq and Afghanistan, we were applying pressure internally to the other nations without HAVING to resort to brute force. And with the first time ever option of independant local officials being allowed to run in SA, the premise seems to be holding true.
"Considering Israel's treatment of Palestine,.."
Yeah Wanda...show me ONE instance where Israel came into the territories to bomb children in their school. Every action taken by Israel has been a response to Palistinian acts of violence, and targeted to the combatants, not civilians. If the Palestinians want a country, let them demonstrate it by stopping their acts of random violence. Israel has offered time and again things that weren't in their best interest of national security, and time after time the Palistinians have responded with suicide bombers targeting civilians. As far as sharing Jeruselem, you might as well ask the Muslims to share Mecca. IT AIN'T GOING TO HAPPEN.
"As for N.Korea, the US would bode well how they deal with them, least we awaken the large bear that sleeps in their backyard."
It's in China's best interests not to allow NoKo to start something that will pull China into it. I really believe that in this case China and the US have a common goal in maintaining the peace. China will put the brakes on NoKO, not us.
"Which may well be why Bush & Co. are putting their focus on Iran."
The nuclear genie is out of the biottle with NoKO, but it would be better that Iran doesn't join the club. There is a large segment of the Irani populace that yearns to throw over the present regime. We should nurture and aid that feeling. The revolution should come from within, not imposed from without.
The whole point of the exercise is to prevent the need for furthur military actions Wanda, not enlarge them. A dangerous game, it's true, but there were no really viable alternatives.
I had to put on my tinfoil hat reading your analysis of the world and incessant insults about how we progressives don't live in the real world
then again, it was you people who said 9/11 and iraq were related and it tuirns out that every senior counterterrorsit expert said that was a stretch and it was never fully vetted
you said he had WMDs
not one iota of evidence has ever survived scrutiny beyond your talking points memos and bullshit repeats of Bush administration exagerations
you guys saaid it would cost us $12 to $30 billion at the most and we would be drawing down troops by september 2003
inbstead we are caught in a sandpit that has cost us upwards of $300 billion and the cost of twelve wounded and three dead americans a day
you said the tax cuts would creat jobs
we are STILL minus 500,000 jobs in the hole
our allies have abandoned us,
oil is $45 a barrell
over 3 million more Americans have joined the poverty list since Bush has been in power
The US lasy year ranked 42nd in the world in infant mortality, right behind Cuba
( BTW thanks for telling us the project for New American century plan for attacking everyone who has oil.)
at the end of the day, none of this combat has achieved a godamned thing but kills tens of thousands
my guess is- you have never lived outside the US. You have a high scholl education- you listen to Rush and Faux News
You bet, you're a dummbass
and you're wrong
by the way, the Netherlands has a higher standard of living than the US, higher productivity, longer life spans, less poverty and almost one tenth our crime rate- also, the typical Dutch 7th grader knows more american history than a US Senior.
What else do you want to be wrong about?
Posted by: Maccabee at February 18, 2005 06:36 PM